Episode Transcript: Lupita Davila, Software Engineer II at Twilio (2021)

[00:00:19] Kate Martin: Welcome to the apprenticeship.io podcast, where we gather the courageous leaders, the tech industry needs to talk about education, equity, job hunts, hiring in tech and you guessed it apprenticeships, whether you're considering a career switch to tech, currently studying, or working and leading in tech, we hope to show you stories, ideas, and tactics to inspire you and equip you to make the tech industry, and our future together, a more equitable place for all of us. Let's get to know today's guest.

[00:00:50] Kamrin Klauschie: Today's guest is Lupita Davila. Lupita is a Software Engineer II on the Growth Engineering team at Twilio. Lupita is one of the founders of the Latinx at Twilio employee resource group, building and growing an inclusive Latinx community at Twilio. This episode is dedicated in honor and celebration of the lives of Oliver Davila, Lupita's father, and Evelia Arevalo, Lupita's grandmother. We know you're both watching over Lupita with pride and joy.

[00:01:19] This episode was recorded in March 2021.

[00:01:22] Welcome back to the podcast, Lupita. It's great to have you back.

[00:01:25] Lupita Davila: Thank you. Yeah, I'm excited to catch up.

[00:01:29] Kamrin Klauschie: I'm really excited to hear about how things have progressed since we last chatted. What have been some of the highs and lows for you?

[00:01:35] Lupita Davila: Definitely. I think the amount of growth that I've been able to just work through in my role since we last spoke, I have been promoted once. That was honestly a really impactful moment for me, because even though I was in the role and I am a software engineer, I think it was when I felt like, "Okay, this is something that I set for myself and I was able to accomplish it." That was really great for me. That has allowed me to show more ownership on projects and now, I'm thinking more about project leading and then of course all of the amazing employer resource group work that I was able to do.

[00:02:20] It's grown a lot. This past year, I decided I didn't want to lead, or at least be a main leader anymore. I can go into more detail into how that happened, but it's grown so much. When we started, we had a handful of people that met in the lunchroom in the main HQ office and now we're at hundreds of members. We were able to get one of the execs to sponsor that ERG, and so now that's something that's set in stone for Twilio. That has been a big game changer for getting things accomplished, getting funding and all of that. It's a lot more organized, I would say.  And then of course, Twilio is global–there's offices everywhere. And so when I was working in the very beginning, it was very focused on HQ. We started really small where we would do an event, let's say Selena, she's super huge in Latinx culture. For her birthday, we did a small event in different offices where we just put on our music, just shared about her story, why she's so significant to us and brought some food. That I think was the big event that really showed how much our ERG had grown, because we had Denver, and multiple offices in California that wanted to join in and even New York. And I think just in general with COVID happening and everything just being over Zoom, it's almost exponential, just seeing how much engagement has increased. It would have been hard to meet people from all over the U.S. or different parts of the world in these types of meetings in the past, because we would just have it in San Francisco.

[00:04:19] The thing that really touched my heart was just seeing how many people were super excited about leading. I left feeling so confident that it was just all gonna work out and it has. I've been more on the sidelines this past year during pandemic and just joining in on events, and it's been super fun, just seeing the excitement and a lot of amazing work that they've all been doing. It's really cool to see the growth.

[00:04:49] Kamrin Klauschie: It sounds like it's really elevated you across all these offices, and also been really great to meet new people and socialize.

[00:05:00] Lupita Davila: Yeah. We they do things such as Cafecito, which means meeting up for coffee and so we get paired with random people. I'll join one-on-one coffees, virtual coffees, and then group coffees, so there's lots of opportunity for me to meet people.

[00:05:18] I've met people in the Bogata office and I've been in one of those meetings where the person speaks Portuguese, and I don't speak Portuguese, but I speak Spanish and so we're using broken Spanish and we're both trying to have a conversation. It's been really cool just learning about how everyone else has been doing, especially given the pandemic. There's this desire for getting to know people, on a different level than we have in the past.

[00:05:51] Kamrin Klauschie: Absolutely. I feel like the pandemic has allowed us to show more of ourselves as we exist in our homes, and as we exist in all of our forms. It's hard. I know I've struggled with showing up without makeup and turning the Zoom on.

[00:06:09] It's so funny, you mentioned Portuguese. I ended up quarantined in Brazil after doing my coding bootcamp in Rio de Janeiro, and it seems a couple of things are interesting. I've had conversations with a lot of Brazilian friends about not realizing that they're identified as Latinx or can participate in Latinx culture.

[00:06:33] That's been an interesting thing to learn about and understand with Brazilians and then have also become very aware that Portuguese is not like Spanish. Folks who speak Portuguese can really understand Spanish very well, but if you are a Spanish speaker and you think you're going to jump to Portuguese, that is a far leap, especially in Rio where the accent is very strong and unique.

[00:06:58] It's really interesting that you are now having to integrate all of the different identities that represent within Latinx.

[00:07:08] Lupita Davila: That's the beauty of working in the Latinx community, it's very diverse and there's even different languages spoken and we all look different and sound different. What helped a lot was the ERG leadership, we did have a few that were Brazilian and so they were able to bring in that perspective and it's "Hey, we noticed we will always do these types of events on like Mexican Independence Day. And September 16th is also a day where a lot of other countries in Latin America have independence day, but also broadening out and thinking, okay it's not just going to be focused on Mexican Americans or Central Americans. Latin America is very big. The switch to virtual has helped a lot because we can include more people. Everyone can be in the room together as long as the time zones allow, which luckily Latin America is great for that.

[00:08:05] Kamrin Klauschie: Awesome. I wanted to add for anyone who hasn't worked in corporate yet, who might be listening or is unfamiliar with some of the tech industry jargon that we use. ERG stands for employee resource group, and Lupita basically is talking about the process of, you can almost think of it as like starting a club. In school, you probably had the opportunity to join a club, and ERG basically functions very similar to that within companies where you can, as Lupita describe, get resources and have events to socialize with other employees. Sometimes it's identity based, it's also hobby based or based on interests as well. It's a really cool thing and check it out if you don't know about it.

[00:08:51] Can you also chat about some of the personal highs and lows that have happened for you over the course of the last few years?

[00:08:58] Lupita Davila: I can start with the low so that we can end on a high note. This last year was probably the most depressing year that I've experienced to date. I understand that it's almost like a collective pain that we've all been going through. Right before we went into lockdown, my dad passed away, and then right after that, I want to say maybe a month, my grandma died. For me, it was like bam, and now you have to stay inside and deal with your feelings. Looking back, I've grown so much from this, and I'm so much stronger today, how I deal with this, then exactly a year ago, but that was huge. That changed everything.

[00:09:49] That was one of the reasons why I stepped down from ERG leadership. All of that happened and I sat down with myself and I was like, "You know what? I can't do everything that I usually do. I don't have the capacity." I had to take a look at what I had on my plate and essentially drop off the ones that I felt like I could. The ERG was perfect because at the time, everything was falling into place. We had just gotten the exec sponsor. There was a lot of excitement with all of the other leaders. I felt like this is perfect timing, even though it's something that I've always been super passionate about and it's been really helpful. It's given me space to really work through the grief, and I still experience it today. I'm not going to say "Oh my gosh, everything's great," but in the past few years, that's been the lowest. I was struggling for a while too, because before my dad had passed away, he was sick for a good six months.

[00:10:52] I got promoted right when it all started. He fell sick and it was just me constantly going back and forth to go see him and spend time with him. It definitely slowed me down a lot. Looking back, it was a slap in the face and a slap in the face that I needed. I don't know if I give off this vibe, but I am very hard on myself. It's like I set a goal and then I set another one and I'm just always going, I need to do all these things, I want to do all these things. This really put a lot into perspective of "Okay, what do I actually really value in my life? How do I work around this? How can I set these career goals, and also find a lot of fulfillment from personal life, like family and loved ones?"

[00:11:43] And I'm still working through it, and I'm really thankful that I work with amazing people that I was able to even work through this. I was surrounded by people who were very empathetic and gave me the space that I needed, and that helped a lot.

[00:11:59] Kamrin Klauschie: Yeah. I'm so sorry you had to go through that, Lupita, it's a testament to how strong you are and that you have to also process it at such a young age. One of the things I fear a lot is the death of my dad. I'm someone who believes the bond between dad and daughter can be a very special one. I fear that a lot, so I can only imagine what it's like to have to deal with losing a parent. I can completely empathize with that grief just hitting you very hard and fast. My boss, who was 37 years old, died from cancer right before the pandemic hit in January of 2020. It was incredibly bizarre because she was one of my biggest mentors and just this very larger than life kind of personality, covered in the New York times when she died and The TODAY Show did a special on her. I had worked with her for a few years and hadn't spoken with her before she died. I knew she was diagnosed with cancer and I sent her a note, but it was this just jarring grief of like, how do you grieve someone in that sort of relationship? Because I didn't know what you're supposed to do when a boss dies, and also someone who you found out about their death on the internet, which I think is a new experience as well.  I went through a different type of grief for sure, but I can only imagine, losing close family members and parents is one of the hardest things you can go through as a person, and then on top of it, we're grieving our old lives, right?

[00:13:37] Lupita Davila: It's been a year filled with grief for so many people. Grief is so messy, and it's so different for each person, as you said, but it doesn't make it any less real. I've been able to, I think, just be okay with not being okay. That was a big first step for me because I've always been the person where I like, "Oh, everything's okay. I'll get through this." It's like almost negating, "No, actually I'm not doing okay." That's been really powerful for me. If I'm doing standup and I'm just not feeling it, like today's not the day, then being honest with my teammates is a lot more fulfilling for me now than in the past where I probably would have just been like, not going to say anything, just going to try to push through.

[00:14:26] This year has really been eye opening because of that, "Oh ,wow, if I am real about how I'm not doing okay, it actually makes me feel better." I don't know if that's the case for everyone. That's been really helpful for me, especially I feel I've always been really private with like family stuff, so it was very uncomfortable in the beginning, especially since it was almost like this grief was ongoing and it started when my dad was sick. Other than my manager, I hadn't really navigated that whole process of people knowing. It's like, "Oh, should I tell my teammates that I'm going through this?"

[00:15:04] Now with the pandemic I'm realizing we're more than just jobs and our role doesn't define all of us, and getting to know the person outside of just work talk is great because you begin to find it easier to empathize with them or it just feels more human, especially with Zoom. The Zoom fatigue is so real.

[00:15:28] Kamrin Klauschie: Yeah, for sure. I feel like for me, the pandemic has made it clear how I want to spend my time and the things I want to invest in long-term versus some of the things that are just noise. I definitely feel strongly about that. And you didn't talk about your highs?

[00:15:45] Lupita Davila: I would say high is I have been really taking care of myself more than I ever have in my entire life. I felt like I really put myself first for survival at the beginning, but now I feel like it's so much easier and I have so much more clarity on what it is that I need. It's easier for me to know what I need and how to ask for it. A lot of that has been through many different types of therapy. I do both one-on-one therapy and I also do couples therapy because another high is I got engaged and so that's been really exciting. It's very bittersweet for different reasons, the timing of everything has been just hard, but that's super exciting. I would say it's just changed my life being able to prioritize self-care. For example, I just know that if I go on a walk that I'm just going to be more productive. It's improved my quality of my work life as well, that's why it's such a high for me. I was like, wow, I can't believe that I used to stress out as much as I did in the past and it affected me emotionally, physically, mentally, and now I have more clarity of what I need in order to be productive and get things done.

[00:17:08] I felt like there was this fog around me and it's all gone now, not fully. There's still days where everything is really hard, but that's been the most life-changing thing for me. I'm not going to lie, I'm a little bit, but nervous about things going back to normal. Am I going to go back to that fast paced beat that never stops, or am I going to continue to take care of myself? I hope that I can continue to take care of myself so that I can take care of people that I love and be able to work on passion projects and all that. I want to be able to have the capacity to do all these things.

[00:17:45] Kamrin Klauschie: Absolutely. I was like, she gonna talk about her engagement? Congratulations!

[00:17:50] Lupita Davila: Thank you.

[00:17:51] Kamrin Klauschie: It sounds like there is a profound wisdom and a maturity that has come from this chapter of your life. I definitely got the sense that you were tough on yourself, back on the couch at Dev Bootcamp, when you showed up way earlier than most students show up very nervous on the couch. That's something I had a bit of awareness about, but I'm glad that you have found that perspective and that sense of priority for yourself. I definitely hope that you're able to keep it and stay in touch with it over time, although the ambitious driven version of Lupita is also a strength of yours like it's something that you should tap into because you're able to accomplish incredible feats with that version of yourself. To effectively know when to go and when to stop, I think is powerful and it takes a lot of discernment to be able to incorporate those different aspects of who you are. It sounds like a magical and really transformational new chapter, a lot of adulting.

[00:19:02] Lupita Davila: Yeah, so much adulting. I think that I'm still trying to balance it out, definitely. Because when I hit my low last year, that's when I realized how burnt out I was just trying to juggle all of the stuff happening in my personal life and then the promotion, I was putting a lot of pressure on myself and I think it just completely fizzled out. I learned that I can't do everything at once. I decided to focus on that this last year and it's proven to be really fruitful for me. Now that I feel like I'm not drowning anymore, 'cause that's how I felt like this time last year, it's a lot easier for me to think about my career goals again. Twilio offered some free career coaching for... I can't actually remember how long I've been doing it. It's been really helpful for me to just have someone to bounce these ideas off of and create a plan. This year, I've been really focused on just upping my leadership skills in the context of my role. I was able to grow a lot in my leadership skills with the Employee Resource Group, but now applying all of that to my day to day role. And honestly I also have really good mentors on the team that I'm on, it's one of the reasons why I've stayed at Twilio. I just really like my teammates and I really like my current manager as well. I feel that everyone is really there to help me grow. I meet with a Tech Lead and and other senior engineers and I ask them for feedback and advice, but mostly feedback, and they're able to give it to me and I'm able to just think through "Okay, this is something that I could work on." It's been good. I think you're right though. I do feel like a lot of my drive was completely wiped out, but I think I needed that time to really just breathe. I've been putting less pressure in terms of timelines. In the past, I've always been very focused on timelines. Oh, I need to do this by this time, in three months or in a year, and now I view it more as check-ins like, "Okay, when can I have a check-in on this? When would I like it to be and how can I get there?" Instead of always having this constant weight on my shoulder "Oh, I told myself I would be promoted in a year and nothing has happened." I've been trying to change my perspective and that's been helping a lot for my mental health as well.

[00:21:27] Kamrin Klauschie: Absolutely. I empathize with that a whole lot because I have been working on a lot of personal side projects during the pandemic and it's just this constant weight of feeling guilty about not getting the things done that I expected myself to do. Even if the things I expect myself to do are wildly ambitious and I'm not being very gracious with myself. That's something we all can empathize with in our own ways is that feeling of inadequacy or wishing you could do more. Especially during the pandemic, expecting each other to be productive at all some days is... it's presumptuous.

[00:22:06] Lupita Davila: The other week I was just having zero concentration. I could not focus and I just told my team, like at stand up, "Hey, I can't for the life of me get anything done. Does anyone want to co-work with me for an hour so I can get this pull request out?" It actually helped a lot. I think it was more therapeutic than anything else, because I was just real with my team. Knowing that I wasn't the only one feeling it that was like, "Oh, okay. It's a bummer that we're all feeling this right now, but  I think it helps to know that you're not the only one."

[00:22:39] Kamrin Klauschie: Exactly. It's like a pressure release valve of just "Oh my God, we're all human." It's not just like me experiencing this by myself, even though we're isolated.  So I'm curious, what would you say to yourself if your current self could have a conversation on the couch at Dev Bootcamp? What would you say to her?

[00:22:58] Lupita Davila: That's a good question.  I think I would tell myself to really, first of all, girl, go get some sleep. I feel like I didn't prioritize sleep  for a long time. Until this past year, I've learned ways to improve that. Now I would also say remember your needs as well. It took me a lot of therapy sessions to really pinpoint what was going on.  On top of me being harder on myself, I've always been a people pleaser. And so just reminding myself, like you have needs too, and what are they, and could you communicate that? I think that would have helped me so much. Also, call your dad more, probably would have said that because there's always that sense of regret, things that you could have done. Since I was still in the same state, but I wasn't in the same city as my family, there's always that sense of regret, "Oh, I wish I would have done so much more with them." But I guess it's more about quality than quantity.

[00:23:53] Kamrin Klauschie: I'm making a note that I need to just call my dad more often. I stress myself out a lot because his dream is to go to Machu Picchu in Peru. This has been one of my goals for a long time, because I've been fortunate enough to travel quite a bit, but my family hasn't, and so I've gotten in the habit of, in some ways, forcing them to live their dreams. I just bought tickets for them and said we're going to figure it out. You're making me remind myself that is a very important priority, not only the big aspirational things, but the little things like, just call him, just check in how's your day going.

[00:24:32] Lupita Davila: I use the Nike Run app and I'll do some of the mindful runs. The coach will talk to you and he'll ask you questions, and one of the questions, I always think about my dad. When he asked this one was "Who needs a call right now?" And who actually needs the call, that person or you. At the end of the day, you also need the call, it's not just the person receiving it. It's just a nice thing to think about when you're running. It's simple, but it does make a difference.

[00:25:03] Kamrin Klauschie: Simple, but profound and life stuff. You mentioned you're having talks with a career coach, what are you dreaming of next? Are you looking at technical versus management track? Is that a conversation that's come up for you? How are you thinking about it?

[00:25:20] Lupita Davila: I don't have all the answers yet and still trying to figure it out. But in general, I love the idea, five years down the line, to be on the management track. But when I think about that, I also think about how I'd love to at least have some experience being a Tech Lead so that as a manager, I can understand that side of things too. I'm honestly very open to just trying everything. Right now, I've been more focused on the technical side, definitely want to get promoted to Senior Software Engineer and lead more technical projects, and then think about being a manager. I just love working with people. I'm just observing how my manager works and it seems like I would like that sort of thing. I just need to get more experience, I think, on the technical side or that I feel like I won't feel satisfied until I meet some technical goals and then think about switching.

[00:26:21] Kamrin Klauschie: Awesome. I love that, and we can clarify for some of the folks listening. When you converted from your apprenticeship, you were at L1 Software Engineer, and then you got promoted to L2 Software Engineer, and what you're talking about now is you get the Senior title at Twilio when you get to L3. It's definitely something that changes a lot of companies and it's different between companies as well, so one aspect of career that you have to learn about and think about occasionally, not often. What is Tech Lead in this hierarchy?

[00:26:55] Lupita Davila: I think it's as long as you're a senior software engineer, you can be tech lead, it's not part of the official title from what I understand.

[00:27:03] Kamrin Klauschie: So it's additional responsibilities you take on to keep your team together and running smoothly, and you're the go-to arbiter of information.

[00:27:14] Lupita Davila: I guess you could say that. I believe there's some engineers that just don't like being Tech Lead as much and so they are more working towards Architect.

[00:27:24] Kamrin Klauschie: And Architect would be the technical track side.

[00:27:28] Lupita Davila: Yeah, it would be on the technical track. I'm not as interested in that. I do like the idea of being Tech Lead because it is in between management and staying on the technical side, because you do have to do a lot of project overseeing and working with different teams to figure out like how to get things out and API contracts and all of that. I've had the opportunity to have mentors and that's helped me also get a better idea, like what each of them do. I'm not as interested right now, this very moment, with the architect route.

[00:28:03] Kamrin Klauschie: Totally. That's the beauty of this is it can change over time and you're still figuring out as you go. I think that's the most honest thing we can offer to everyone is like... you have to learn about it, how it works at your own company, because it's different in every company and you don't have to have it figured out yet. It's not going to be a hundred percent clear all the time. I feel like that's really honest and authentic to let people see this is how it actually feels.

[00:28:30] Lupita Davila: I definitely do talk about this with my manager. We have the year goals and then the vision, like the five-year, so it's something that we're going to be checking in on as I move on up. It's helpful to think about and check in every year or every six months, "Oh what is that five-year goal, and am I still interested in that?" 'Cause then, as time passes, those five years come to a close, so I need to keep checking on it.

[00:28:55] Kamrin Klauschie: Exactly. You gotta advocate for yourself. It takes bravery, sometimes. What's your favorite technology right now? This is deliberately broad, by the way, technology can be a lot of different things.

[00:29:06] Lupita Davila: Just in general, it's really cool to work for a telecommunications company in this pandemic, just being able to use it to make things easier. Being able to talk to my family on video chat, never really put much thought to that before until the pandemic, and it's just, it's so important now. I can't even imagine not having it. With the election as well, I was able to volunteer for a bit, but the nonprofit is basically canvassing, we're just reminding people about their data, their poll information and answering questions and all through like text messaging, which is really cool. Because we can't really be knocking doors right now safely, and it's also just quicker that way.

[00:29:58] Kamrin Klauschie: A very Twilio answer. I love it. You're immersed in, so it makes sense. What are you coding the most in these days?

[00:30:05] Lupita Davila: So our backend stuff has been Scala, so that's been mostly my backend work and front end it's been React. I recently started picking up TypeScript, so that's been fun and new for me. Not going to lie, I'm excited for the rest of this year because there's just been a lot of changes happening and our systems just have not grown with that. And so we have a chance to really think things from scratch, which is really fun for me. I'm going to be working on some front end heavy projects and thinking about how do we run multiple experiments? If one project manager has this one thing they want to test and another one has another thing, how can we run them in an efficient way? Because right now it hasn't been as efficient as we'd like it. It's been mostly that I've been doing a lot of investigations. I've been noticing that it's a lot more research.

[00:31:01] Kamrin Klauschie: I don't envy Scala. I assume it's great 'cause it's been around for a long time, but it sounds scary to me. TypeScript on the other hand, I've gotten familiar with recently and I really like it. It's like a mix between HTML, CSS and JavaScript altogether. If they had a baby, it would be TypeScript. I like that, but I'm very bad at it for now, but it looks cool to me.

[00:31:24] Lupita Davila: Working in Scala, it's not too hard to pick up. That's the cool thing about Typescript, I would say that the learning curve was bigger for me when I was picking up React Redux at the very beginning. TypeScript has not been as confusing as I thought it was going to be.

[00:31:43] Kamrin Klauschie: What would you say is the most rewarding part of your day to day? Like when you wake up in the morning and you're like, "okay, I have a normal Tuesday," what part of your day are you looking forward to most?

[00:31:54] Lupita Davila: I would say stand up because I don't have as many meetings as some of the other engineers on the team, who are like tech leads and they just have a lot of stuff going on. But I also, I enjoy just...  this is a good one...

[00:32:13] Kamrin Klauschie: Sometimes I fantasize about just long uninterrupted hours of coding...

[00:32:17] Lupita Davila: I'm able to still and get those chunks of time in, which is really nice, and we have no meeting Fridays, so I really Fridays actually. I don't think I can do no meetings at all, but it's really nice to have that one day in the week where you just don't have any meetings. I really enjoy having those one-off fun meetings with my team where we just talk or play I can't remember the name of the game. It's not called Pictionary, but it's basically Pictionary. Checking in on people and playing a game if there's time.

[00:32:51] Kamrin Klauschie: Getting in that quality time.

[00:32:53] Lupita Davila: Sometimes they'll sneak in something fun, like up to bring some life to the day. I think it's been harder now. I feel like this past month or so, it's just like that, especially at the anniversary of the lockdown. It's put a lot into perspective and so it's been a little hard just thinking about, "Wow, it's been a year."  So I think my morale was down for a little bit, for a few days there, but I'm just trying to bring some life back into it.

[00:33:20] Kamrin Klauschie: I think we all feel you on that. It's wild thinking that it's been a whole year. Sometimes I can't even remember timelines of when things happened in the last couple of years, 'cause it just feels so different than how things were before. Do you have any parting words of wisdom or anything you'd like to offer for the folks out there who might be listening and aspiring to be in the position you're in now?

[00:33:46] Lupita Davila: I would say, definitely, surround yourself with people who uplift you. Find a community or reach out to someone who inspires you and just have coffee with them. That's when I feel the most inspired. It just keeps you on your toes. You're always trying to build some community for yourself. Just remember to take care of yourselves to think we're all human. It's been a really hard year for everyone and everyone's been affected by  2020 in one way or another. I think just acknowledging that and giving yourself the space to just be.  There's just days where you just need to be. I'm feeling a lot of hope for this coming year, as more of my family members, they're vaccinated. That brings so much hope for me right now, so I'm holding onto that. Holding onto them.

[00:34:36] Kamrin Klauschie: Absolutely. Things are getting better, so many things are getting better. 2021 is going to be different for sure. Thank you so much. This has been super inspiring. I'm always different and changed as a person from before and after we chat.

[00:34:53] Lupita Davila: Oh, I'm so flattered.

[00:34:55] Kamrin Klauschie: Energy and such wisdom that comes out of you.

[00:35:00] Lupita Davila: Oh, thank you. I don't know what I'm doing. Like a hundred percent of the time.

[00:35:04] Kamrin Klauschie: None of us know what we're doing. That's just something that stands out for me with you, and even more so now, after this chapter of your life. So keep it up. You are amazing, and thank you so much for giving us your time.

[00:35:20] Lupita Davila: Yeah, no, thank you.

[00:35:21] Kate Martin: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the apprenticeship.io podcast. You can learn more about apprenticeships and find us online at www.apprenticeship.io. Don't forget to follow us on Spotify, and subscribe on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[00:35:48] Until next time, we're rooting for you.